There Is No "Us and Them" at the Cross

with Jason Clark






This podcast highlights Jason’s book, Leaving and finding Jesus, where he writes about his deconstructing faith journey. The book is Jason’s Emmaus Road discovery of a love that is reconciling all creation; a journey where he’s awakening to a burning heart while leaving every Jesus who won’t lay His life down for His friends. 

This podcast features a message Jason gave at an icuTalks where he addresses trauma within the church. He confronts the myth of separation with the truth that absolutely nothing, not life or death, powers or authorities, not present or future, not our understandings, beliefs, systems, or actions, nothing separates us from the reconciling love of God.

To Pre-Purchase CLICK HERE
To Pre-Purchase through the Idiegogo campaign / multiple book titles CLICK HERE
To receive an early PDF copy for the purpose of endorsement, email me at,

To Learn More About icuTalks CLICK HERE
To Learn More About Jason’s Speaking Engagement in the San Fransisco Area on Oct 7-8 2022CLICK HERE

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Podcast intro and outro music by Wilde Assembly



Jason Clark is a writer, speaker, and lead communicator at A Family Story ministries. His mission is to encourage sons and daughters to grow sure in the love of an always-good heavenly Father. He and his wife, Karen, live in North Carolina with their three children.


  1. Tineke

    My favourite part is when you were listing all the Jesus’s you aren’t friends with anymore. haha! So on point!

    Interestingly, almost a year and a half ago, I wrote a poem with a similar title as your book. It ended up being published in David Tensen’s book “The Saving I Need.” I think the theme of it somewhat relates to this episode and likely, the theme of your book too. Although it’s a bit more personal to my relationship with my dad, who has chosen to separate himself from me because of my being a “heretic” right along with ya, Jason! haha. Here is the poem if you’d like to read it:

    Letting Go and Finding

    I wonder why I always felt
    the heaviness of your happiness?
    Why did I carry your weight
    on my tiny shoulders?
    If you’re happy, I’m happy … or so I thought.

    A little girl could never anticipate
    all the ways you’d find
    to be dissatisfied
    or all the scriptures
    you’d never hesitate to use
    as weapons of mass destruction.

    A child could never predict
    that the only way
    to remain in your love
    was to disappear all together
    and cease to e x i s t at all.

    Follow in daddy’s footsteps, they said.
    So, I tried to bleed out
    all that wasn’t right
    by cutting my own flesh
    but little did I know
    you’d take it one step further
    by cutting out your own flesh
    and blood
    and throwing me away.

    A daughter of God,
    made in His image,
    can’t know her Father
    when her father
    has made god in his own image
    and is not conformed to this world
    but is transformed by the closing
    of his mind.

    What does your dad think? they ask.
    Which dad? I wonder.
    You? Who lives by the law
    of stepping away?
    or the step-dads who have
    stepped up
    stepped forward
    and walked each step
    by my side?

    I wonder why
    it took half a lifetime
    for me to let go
    and let you go
    and go
    to a Father’s lap
    who loves.
    And loves
    And loves.
    And loves.

    • Jason Clark


      Wow! Just read your comment and THAT poem! It’s so powerful! And there is life and healing in every word.

      Yes, that’s the book I’ve just finished. One in which we leave every Jesus (or Father) that isn’t laying His life down for His friends (humanity).

      Leaving the god (father) who participates in separation and punishment and awakening to God/Love (Our Father) who never leaves and is reconciling the cosmos to Himself!

      Honored to be on the journey with you and call you a friend.

      Thanks for sharing.

      • Tineke

        Thank you! It was an honour for ME to be able to reference you and your dad and other loving “step-dads” in this poem who have taken my hand and led me to find Love as I know Him now.


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In this conversation, Bill Vanderbush and Jason discuss the shift from a desperate, performance-based Christianity to living in the goodness and simplicity of Christ. They explore the concept of the goodness of God and the danger of limited perception. They also touch on the deconstructed community and the reformational period the body of Christ is going through.

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With humor and authenticity, Lloyd talks about the finished work of the Cross, how Jesus fixed the problem of separation, and our invitation to awaken to our union.

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