Reveal / Defend
Years ago, I was on staff at a church where the worship leader and I had radical differences about theology. One week, I preached a message declaring that everyone in the room was a spiritual giant. I was speaking to our identity, our original innocence, and the invitation to participate in the finished work of the Cross.
The following week, the worship pastor stood with an actual whip in his hand and preached the opposite. He declared we are prone to wander and that God looks away. “There are no spiritual giants in this room,” he said. It was heartbreaking. His theology, to me, was wrong, toxic, and deeply flawed.
I stood in the back of the room for the third and final service. “Father, what am I doing here?” I asked. And then He reminded me who He is and who I am. LOVE. Measureless, other-centered, self-giving, transforming LOVE.
“You’re here to be LOVE—to be a walking revelation of My affection.” He said. “You’re here to reveal, not defend.” He reminded me that Love keeps no record of wrong and thus has no right to be offended.
Then my Father highlighted a fella who stood in the back row, arms stretched wide, tears streaming down his face. “That man is having an encounter with my love.” My Father said.
For a split second, I was annoyed. “But the message is wrong, toxic, it’s deeply flawed!” I thought. Then just as quick, my heart shifted as I heard my Father whisper, “Yes, Jason, the
message is wrong, toxic, it’s deeply flawed. But one encounter with My love is more powerful than anything else. My love is transformative, sustaining. My love is the long game. And I’ve never limited myself to your poor theology.”
That moment defined my ministry. God meets us where we are, in the middle of our flawed theology. He speaks in the language of our understanding.
I realized that man was unlikely ready to hear the good news as I had discovered it; he was lost in the knowledge of good and evil, a prodigal who only understood slaving, the context of transaction. It’s heartbreaking, but the whip message was the language of his understanding.
Was his understanding deeply flawed? Yes. But that’s the road he was traveling, and thus that’s the road our Father met him on. Our Father chased Him down and embraced Him, knowing that embrace would ultimately, over time, and hopefully in this life, reveal the Gospel. The good news that would set him truly and fully free. There is no shadow of turning with Thee, and thus there is no earning, no whip. Love is unconditional.
The point? Our Father did not limit His kind affection to the flawed words coming from the man on stage. No, our Father ran to meet his son, who only wanted to know he was loved! Our Father knew that over time, His measureless love would transform any part of the son’s wrong, toxic, and deeply flawed theology.
I’ve given my life to rethinking my theology. It matters. The closer we are to knowing Greater Love — the more our God lens is like Jesus — the more we experience eternal life. But it’s a journey.
My journey into this union grace has been 51 hard-fought, intentional years where my Father continues to faithfully meet me in my wrong, toxic, and deeply flawed theology.
And this is why I’m encouraged today. You see, I’m not alone. And while it’s taken me 51 years of growing conviction in this Greater love gospel, these days, I meet people who are just as confident at half my age. And then there are the fathers and mothers who are mature in their union – LOVE.
Union, grace, it’s in the ether. We have books, and language, ministries, people, the church, deep and wide, maturing in love.
Right now, there is a spiritual hunger in our world, while at the same time, there is an awakening within the church. Yes, there are distorted versions of Jesus being presented and leveraged, but there’s also a groundswell of sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, friends who are convinced in His affection.
Yesterday, I recognized that man from the church years ago in the upraised arms of hundreds of thousands as we celebrated Charlie Kirk’s life and mourned his death. And I heard my Father whisper. “Yes, Jason, some of the message is wrong, toxic, it’s deeply flawed. But one encounter with My love is more powerful than anything else. My love is transformative, sustaining. My love is the long game.”
I watched yesterday in the liberty of a gospel that doesn’t require agreement or the “right” theology. A gospel that isn’t limited to our finite fears but is a measureless love that casts out fear. A Love that meets us where we are and, thank God, doesn’t leave us there but journeys with us. A love that transforms.
Many are worried about how Charlie’s passing has been politicized. Some are concerned about the left, others about the right. We live in a dualistic world, where the knowledge of good and evil always creates a vortex that pulls people in. It is a tired and powerless waste of time. There is no eternal life to be found in it.
But here’s a word of encouragement: we’re not here to defend, but to reveal. May we grow ever sure in His love.
My heart goes out to Charlie’s wife and kids, his family. Praying grace, grace, grace.
STEVE CHALKE / BUILDING OASIS: A MISSION OF HOPE
In this conversation, Steve Chalke shares his journey from a challenging childhood in South London to becoming a prominent church leader and social justice advocate. He discusses the founding of Oasis, a charity aimed at providing support and shelter for vulnerable youth, and reflects on the challenges faced in this mission. Chalke emphasizes the importance of personal experiences in shaping one’s understanding of faith and theology, particularly in the context of social justice and community service.
In this conversation, Jason and Steve explore profound themes of faith, love, justice, and the true message of Jesus. They discuss the challenges of understanding God’s goodness in the face of grief, the social activism of Jesus, and the misconceptions surrounding penal substitutionary atonement. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of love and relationship in healing and transformation, as well as the need for a restorative approach to justice. They also delve into the significance of original goodness, the impact of trauma on behavior, and the transformative journey of understanding God’s heart for humanity.
For more information on Steve Chalke
Oasis Charitable Trust: www.oasisuk.org
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Chalke
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GIL HODGES / CHOICE: THE MOST POWERFUL THING IN THE UNIVERSE… NEXT TO GOD
In this conversation, Gil Hodges shares his transformative journey from a troubled past involving counterfeiting to a life of faith and spiritual growth. He discusses the importance of understanding God’s true nature. He and Jason talk about Gil’s book, Choice: The Most Powerful Thing in the Universe… Next to God.
They talk about the role of choice in spirituality, and the significance of love and trust in building intimacy with God.
The conversation also touches on the challenges of community living, the potential future of humanity in relation to AI, and the joy of sharing tacos as a metaphor for connection and community.
For more information on GilHodges
www.kingdomtalksmedia.com
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ETHAN WILDE CLARK / CONNECTION COMMUNITY & AUTHENTICITY
In this fun and engaging conversation, Jason and his son Ethan explore the complexities of faith, family, and the next generation’s relationship with the church. They discuss personal encounters with God, the importance of authenticity, and the challenges faced by youth today.
The conversation also touches on parenting philosophies, church trauma, and the transformative power of love and identity in Christ. Through their candid exchange, they highlight the significance of fostering genuine connections and understanding in a rapidly changing world.
For more information on Ethan Wilde Clark:
www.linktr.ee/wilde.assembly
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FRANCOIS & LYDIA DU TOIT / AWAKENING TO THE I AM-NESS OF GOD
“We’ve preached man in Adam; we need to preach man in Christ.”
In this conversation, Francois and Lydia du Toit discuss with Jason the power of the gospel and the revelation of our identity in Christ. Francois speaks to our oneness with God and explores the idea that faith is not something we do, but something that happens to us when we grasp the truth that we are in Christ and experience the fellowship that comes from this realization. They also highlight the joy and confidence that comes from living in this reality and the impact it can have on our daily lives.
Francois and Lydia share the beauty of living in the present moment and highlight the significance of living from innocence and the freedom it brings. They share about encountering the love of God in all our relationships. The conversation concludes with a prayer for blessings and fruitfulness in sharing the message of who we are in Christ.
“We’ve preached man in Adam; we need to preach man in Christ – you cannot preach man in Christ before you see him there. To see him there, you have to have your understanding unveiled. Only faith can do that; only faith can see what the flesh cannot see. Because faith is to your spirit what your senses are to your body.”
For more information on Francois du Toit:
www.mirrorword.net
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FR. KENNETH TANNER & DR. CHRIS GREEN / READING SCRIPTURE IN COMMUNITY
In this conversation, Fr Kenneth Tanner, Chris Green, and Jason discuss the importance of reading scripture in community and approaching it with a Christocentric lens. They emphasize the need to move away from transactional and isolated approaches to scripture and instead engage in relational and communal exploration of who God is.
The conversation touches on the harm caused by misinterpretations of scripture and the importance of humility and healing in our reading and understanding of the Bible. The conversation explores the themes of power, prophecy, love, and complexity. It delves into the stories of Amos, Paul, and John the Baptist, highlighting the silencing and persecution of prophets.
The guys discuss the distinction between the shallow heart which can be deceived, and the deep heart, which is oriented towards the truth, emphasizing the need to see beyond appearances and trust in the unseen. They also address the challenges of navigating the current cultural and political climate, urging humility, openness, and a focus on personal relationships. The conversation concludes with a reminder to prioritize scripture, prayer, and serving others.
For more information on Fr. Kenneth Tanner:
www.holyredeemer.us
For more information on Dr. Chris Green:
www.substack.com/@cewgreen
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JEFF TURNER / THE ATHEISTIC THEIST
In this conversation, Jason and Jeff Turner discuss their experiences with questioning and exploring their faith. They talk about the process of deconstructing their beliefs and the fear and uncertainty that comes with it. In the first half of the conversation, the guys touch on themes from Jeff’s book, Saints in the Arms of a Happy God. They discuss topics such as grace, legalism, pain, leaving and finding Jesus, and the tight-knit community of like-minded individuals.
In the second half of the conversation, they discuss Jeff’s book, The Atheistic Theist: Why There is No God and You Should Follow Him. Jeff shares how atheism was part of Jeff’s journey to a deeper understanding of faith.
The conversation highlights the idea that the journey of faith is not linear, but rather a constant process of discovery, growth, and reawakening. They explore the themes of loss, the discovery of a deeper reality, and the role of love in their spiritual journeys. They emphasize the importance of trust and relational theology in navigating the unnerving process of deconstruction. They also touch on the measureless and timeless reality of love and the significance of language in sharing the journey with others.
For more on Jeff Turner:
Podcast: www.religionless.podbean.com
Website: www.patreon.com/religionless
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JACK HABERER / SWIMMING WITH SHARKS
In this conversation, Jason and his uncle, Jack Haberer, discuss Jack’s journey in ministry and his new book, Swimming with Sharks: Leading The Full Spectrum Church In A Red And Blue World.
The book addresses the polarization within American Christianity and offers insights on fostering unity across denominations and ideologies. They explore the importance of speaking the truth in love and embracing a full spectrum approach to church, where all voices are heard and valued.
They also discuss the need to go beyond dualistic thinking and embrace the revelation of God’s love and grace. The conversation highlights the significance of understanding the true nature of Jesus and applying his teachings in a politically divided world.
For more information on Jack Haberer
Website: www.jackhaberer.com
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