JOEL CLARK, TRICIA HALSEY & JEEVA RATNATHICAM / DEEPLY ROOTED STORIES
In this special episode, Jason Clark introduces Deeply Rooted and the creative team behind the stories they have been quietly building for years—films, children’s books, and family-centered adventures designed to reveal the goodness of God, strengthen families, and awaken imagination. From the emotional feature film ALL IN to the wildly imaginative young adult book series I Changed the World, this conversation dives into storytelling, faith, creativity, healing, and why the stories we believe shape the people we become. It’s funny, vulnerable, inspiring, and full of behind-the-scenes insight into a growing movement of redemptive storytelling
For more info on the I Changed the World Books Series Offer, go to:
https://ichangedtheworldoffer.com/
For more information on Deeply Rooted, go to:
https://deeplyrootedstories.com/
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Podcast intro and outro music by Wilde Assembly
Reveal / Defend
Years ago, I was on staff at a church where the worship leader and I had radical differences about theology. One week, I preached a message declaring that everyone in the room was a spiritual giant. I was speaking to our identity, our original innocence, and the invitation to participate in the finished work of the Cross.
The following week, the worship pastor stood with an actual whip in his hand and preached the opposite. He declared we are prone to wander and that God looks away. “There are no spiritual giants in this room,” he said. It was heartbreaking. His theology, to me, was wrong, toxic, and deeply flawed.
I stood in the back of the room for the third and final service. “Father, what am I doing here?” I asked. And then He reminded me who He is and who I am. LOVE. Measureless, other-centered, self-giving, transforming LOVE.
“You’re here to be LOVE—to be a walking revelation of My affection.” He said. “You’re here to reveal, not defend.” He reminded me that Love keeps no record of wrong and thus has no right to be offended.
Then my Father highlighted a fella who stood in the back row, arms stretched wide, tears streaming down his face. “That man is having an encounter with my love.” My Father said.
For a split second, I was annoyed. “But the message is wrong, toxic, it’s deeply flawed!” I thought. Then just as quick, my heart shifted as I heard my Father whisper, “Yes, Jason, the
message is wrong, toxic, it’s deeply flawed. But one encounter with My love is more powerful than anything else. My love is transformative, sustaining. My love is the long game. And I’ve never limited myself to your poor theology.”
That moment defined my ministry. God meets us where we are, in the middle of our flawed theology. He speaks in the language of our understanding.
I realized that man was unlikely ready to hear the good news as I had discovered it; he was lost in the knowledge of good and evil, a prodigal who only understood slaving, the context of transaction. It’s heartbreaking, but the whip message was the language of his understanding.
Was his understanding deeply flawed? Yes. But that’s the road he was traveling, and thus that’s the road our Father met him on. Our Father chased Him down and embraced Him, knowing that embrace would ultimately, over time, and hopefully in this life, reveal the Gospel. The good news that would set him truly and fully free. There is no shadow of turning with Thee, and thus there is no earning, no whip. Love is unconditional.
The point? Our Father did not limit His kind affection to the flawed words coming from the man on stage. No, our Father ran to meet his son, who only wanted to know he was loved! Our Father knew that over time, His measureless love would transform any part of the son’s wrong, toxic, and deeply flawed theology.
I’ve given my life to rethinking my theology. It matters. The closer we are to knowing Greater Love — the more our God lens is like Jesus — the more we experience eternal life. But it’s a journey.
My journey into this union grace has been 51 hard-fought, intentional years where my Father continues to faithfully meet me in my wrong, toxic, and deeply flawed theology.
And this is why I’m encouraged today. You see, I’m not alone. And while it’s taken me 51 years of growing conviction in this Greater love gospel, these days, I meet people who are just as confident at half my age. And then there are the fathers and mothers who are mature in their union – LOVE.
Union, grace, it’s in the ether. We have books, and language, ministries, people, the church, deep and wide, maturing in love.
Right now, there is a spiritual hunger in our world, while at the same time, there is an awakening within the church. Yes, there are distorted versions of Jesus being presented and leveraged, but there’s also a groundswell of sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, friends who are convinced in His affection.
Yesterday, I recognized that man from the church years ago in the upraised arms of hundreds of thousands as we celebrated Charlie Kirk’s life and mourned his death. And I heard my Father whisper. “Yes, Jason, some of the message is wrong, toxic, it’s deeply flawed. But one encounter with My love is more powerful than anything else. My love is transformative, sustaining. My love is the long game.”
I watched yesterday in the liberty of a gospel that doesn’t require agreement or the “right” theology. A gospel that isn’t limited to our finite fears but is a measureless love that casts out fear. A Love that meets us where we are and, thank God, doesn’t leave us there but journeys with us. A love that transforms.
Many are worried about how Charlie’s passing has been politicized. Some are concerned about the left, others about the right. We live in a dualistic world, where the knowledge of good and evil always creates a vortex that pulls people in. It is a tired and powerless waste of time. There is no eternal life to be found in it.
But here’s a word of encouragement: we’re not here to defend, but to reveal. May we grow ever sure in His love.
My heart goes out to Charlie’s wife and kids, his family. Praying grace, grace, grace.
BILL WINN WITH C. BAXTER KRUGER / GOOD DIRT
In this week’s conversation, long-term friend and host of the Good Dirt, Bill Winn, sits down with Baxter and Jason to explore the sacred-secular divide that has shaped so much of Christian thinking. From hilarious tales of roosters and bees to profound moments about porta potties and car repairs, Baxter, Jason, and Bill unpack how the presence of the Father, Son, and Spirit infuses all of life—not just church services or “religious” activities.
Together they challenge the false split between sacred and secular, showing how every vocation, and every moment in life can all be seen as sacred as we participate in the great life and dance of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Then the conversation turns to explore what union with Jesus truly means. Together, they unpack how union ends religious striving, revealing that we have always belonged to the Father, Son, and Spirit—even before the foundation of the world.
Through personal stories, scripture, and practical insights, they show that union isn’t about trying to get to God but waking up to the truth that Jesus has already united himself with us—even in our darkest places. It is this good news that brings a peace and freedom beyond anything we’ve known before.
For more on Bill Winn:
Website: https://www.billwinnbooks.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3_V5DDa9TfuWM4IORLtAwQ
For more on Dr. C. Baxter Kruger:
https://perichoresis.org/
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Podcast intro and outro music by Wilde Assembly
BOB SWITZER / THE EPIC NARRATIVE
In this conversation, Bob Switzer shares his journey. Women in ministry, shifting from exegetical to narrative preaching, challenging traditional church structures, and pursuing authenticity, in this conversation Bob discusses the importance of Jesus as perfect theology and the need to reexamine problematic scriptures.
Bob also reflects on the loneliness experienced as a pastor and the lack of long-term friendships. He highlights the significance of exploring new theological perspectives and embracing the goodness of God. In this conversation, Bob Switzer and Jason discuss the misconceptions of podcasting and the unique format of Bob’s podcast, The Epic Narrative.
They delve into the exploration of the life of David and the complexity of his story. They also touch on the importance of rethinking God and approaching scripture with a Christocentric hermeneutic. The conversation highlights the dualism in the story of Balaam and the liberty found in understanding the goodness of God. They conclude by emphasizing the significance of living in the eternal now and the freedom that comes from discovering the true character of God.
For more on Bob Switzer
Website: www.thebobswitzer.com
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Podcast intro and outro music by Wilde Assembly
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MALCOLM AND CHERYL SMITH / THE STORYTELLER
Early encounters with Holy Spirit—the Gospel, growing in the language of love, shifting paradigms from separation to union, the conviction of God’s goodness, The Prodigal Son and the Good Father, Jesus the storyteller, and the significance of presenting the gospel through story, prison ministry, and transformative love, the Eucharist, the eternal now, gratitude and enjoyment; in this conversation Malcolm and Cheryl Smith share their background and journey in ministry, highlighting key moments of encounter and revelation.
For more on Malcolm & Cheryl Smith
Website: www.unconditionallovefellowship.com
Website: www.malcolmsmith.org
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Miriam / Chapter Seven: The Stranger
I Changed The World Book Series
The current of the Nile River was strong at some points. But Miriam’s mother had chosen a section of the river that was calm. Even so, Miriam’s breath caught each time the basket bumped into a log or bobbed about in the current.
There were wild moments where she was certain the basket would tip. In these moments, she thought she could hear the thrilled laughter of Amram.
While he was clearly unbothered, Miriam had visions of the basket upending and having to dive in to rescue her brother either from drowning or the Nile Crocodiles.
I’m not a great swimmer, and I have no idea how I’d fight a Crocodile, but I’ll do it if I have to! The thought terrified her, and so Miriam whispered prayers as she followed. God protect him, save him, steady the basket, keep him from harm.
There were moments when Miriam feared the basket would get away from her. Some parts of the river were swiftly moving, and, in these moments, panic rose inside her chest. At other times, the basket seemed to move at a snail’s pace. Her eyes flicked to the cloud-filled sky. At least it’s not too hot! The Egyptian sun could be brutal this time of year. Miriam stumbled and caught herself before falling. Pain seared through her burnt hands. She winced as she looked at her ruined hands, but she would not cry.
“Well, hello there,” a voice said from somewhere behind her.
Miriam squeaked, leaping around in fear. Just a few paces away was a man. He looked to be Israeli, but he was dressed in a cloak covered in patches of every conceivable color. The man was smiling at her as he raised his hands calmingly.
“Don’t be scared. I saw you following the river and wanted to make sure you’re alright,” The man said, offering a warm smile.
Miriam stayed wary. Her parents had taught her not to talk to strangers. But this man seemed kind.
The man motioned to the river, “Careful now; you don’t want to lose sight of your little brother.
Miriam spun, worried baby Amram had drifted out of sight. Thankfully this was a particularly slow part of the river, and the basket was moving extra slow. “Wait,” Miriam turned back to the stranger, “How do you know about my brother?” she asked. “Did—did my father or mother send you?”
“No,” the man laughed, “let us walk as we talk,” he motioned to the river again. “So we can keep an eye on baby Amram.” The Stranger kept his focus on the basket as he continued.
“Your parents did not send me, although I checked in on them this morning. Last night was horrible,” a wave of sorrow seemed to pass over the man as he spoke. “The evil that was done, the suffering—” the stranger wiped a tear from his eye. “There is much evil in the world, so much striving and sorrow. Much to atone, much to be reconciled.”
Miriam was confused. What was this man talking about?
“But that is not why I have come today,” the man smiled again. “At least, not the only reason,” the Stranger stopped for a moment and looked deep into Miriam’s eyes.
His eyes are every color. Miriam gasped. As though all creation existed there! It was a strange thought “Who are you?”
“That’s a good question. You will often ponder it in the years to come, but you already know the answer,” the man said thoughtfully, “I came to make sure you know who you are.” The Stranger continued walking. Somehow, the river kept baby Amram at the exact same speed as their pace. Miriam kept checking, but it was almost as if the basket were tied to an invisible leash.
“Miriam, of the Levi family. You doubt yourself, but Yahweh sees you, is for you, and lives within you. You are kind and good, strong and able, you are courageous, and I am with you!”
Miriam couldn’t explain it, but she knew to the core of her being that this Stranger spoke with authority and Truth. Then the Man turned his gaze to her, “You are Abba’s favorite—the one He loves!”
Something was happening inside Miriam’s chest. She could feel a warmth spreading through her. Sometimes people referred to the Jewish priests as ‘Abba,’ which meant ‘father,’ but she didn’t think the stranger was talking about a particular priest. He was talking about God. He was calling God, Dad. And she knew it was true. God was a Father.
“What happened to your hands?!” Miriam blurted out. It was an odd question, but she had noticed they were scarred. She was so overwhelmed by the intense goodness of what the Stranger had just told her that she thought it might be good to change the subject.
“I could ask the same of you.” The man responded.
Miriam immediately regretted her outburst. She knew it wasn’t polite to point out someone’s scars as they are often attached to traumatic experiences. The man’s hands bore gnarly scars as if they had each been pierced through.
The Stranger turned and looked at Miriam; then he gently picked up her hands. She winced in pain as he unwrapped one of her bandages to reveal the burned palm and blistered fingers.
Tears ran down His cheeks. Then He smiled and held his hands up proudly. “These scars take us back to the beginning of our conversation; they confront evil and speak to the restoration of all creation. They reveal a finished work that addresses death itself. They reveal a love you can know that is beyond understanding, a one-of-a-kind love our Heavenly Father has for you!”
Miriam’s head was spinning as she looked into the man’s eyes. Not even the High Priests talk like this!
“Mistress, what is that?” a woman’s voice called out from somewhere nearby.
Miriam’s breath caught at the sound of the voice. Her jaw dropped when she realized where they were! How did this happen? How are we here already? The thought thundered through her mind. Amram’s basket had circled all the way around to the Ramesseum, Pharaoh’s most ornate and elaborate royal palace on the west bank of the Nile.
“Oh no!” Miriam whispered, “We’ve come too far!” she croaked as she turned to the Stranger. She stopped, suddenly confused. The man had disappeared. She scanned the area, but there was no trace of him! Where did he go?
Miriam spun back around. The stranger was not her concern. She needed to protect her baby brother! Miriam searched the shoreline. There were people standing waist-deep in the river not far ahead. No, no, no! Miriam wanted to scream. Her mother had placed Amram in the basket to get him away from the Pharaoh, and now, the basket was floating directly past the palace!
“What’s this now?” another woman said, “Someone, go get that basket for me. I want to see what’s inside.”
Miriam’s breath caught as a young Israelite woman came into view. The woman was swimming over to the basket. When she reached it, she grabbed it with one hand and began swimming back to the shoreline. Creeping as quietly as a mouse, Miriam rounded the bend in the river and hid in the reeds,” A short distance away, a dozen or so women were bathing in the waters of the Nile.
The Israelite woman who had retrieved the basket was clearly one of the half-dozen servants. As Miriam watched, the servant girl swam to a shallower depth and stood. When she looked inside the basket, she gasped. “Highness! There is a baby inside!”
“A baby?” another woman gasped. “Oh, the poor thing! Is it OK?”
Miriam crept closer, trying to see the woman who was speaking.
“Yes, princess! It looks to be sound asleep,” the servant woman said.
“Bring it to me.”
The servant woman was clearly in shock as she waded over to the second young woman. As Miriam was finally able to see the second woman who’d been speaking, the words she’d been hearing struck home. Mistress! Princess! She must be Pharaoh’s daughter! 
Fear gripped Miriam as she watched. All of Israel knew that Pharaoh was merciless. Her father had told her this Pharaoh was more brutal than any in living memory.
What will his daughter do? Will she drown my little brother or bring him to her father? Miriam could not keep the tears from her eyes. I am sorry, brother, it was a cold thought. I have failed to keep you safe!
Pharaoh’s daughter, the princess, reached into the basket and lifted Amram out, almost tenderly. He was still swaddled in his blanket. As she did, she met the eyes of her servant. “I cannot imagine the pain this child’s mother must have felt to make such an impossible choice. How horrible that this was her only option to save him from my father’s evil decree.” The princess placed a hand on her own belly; only now did Miriam realize the princess was pregnant.
“How do you know it is a boy, Highness?” another Egyptian woman asked.
The princess cradled the baby close as she turned to the woman. “You know as well as I the brutal decree my father passed. They may be our slaves, but what we have done to the baby boys is unforgivable.”
“What will you do, Mistress?” The Egyptian said.
Miriam willed her feet to move. She knew if she thought about it for even a moment, she would be too terrified to do anything but run. Faith, her mother had once told her, means you step out even before you know if there is solid ground in front of you. Faith is being sure of what we cannot see. Miriam wasn’t sure of anything, but as she moved, she heard a whisper, a still, small voice speaking to her heart.
YOU ARE STRONG AND ABLE. YOU ARE COURAGEOUS, AND I AM WITH YOU!
“Excuse me, Highness, but I might have an idea for you,” Miriam’s voice trembled as she spoke.
When the princess and all the rest of the women turned to face her, Miriam stepped out of the reeds and stopped in sheer terror. What was I thinking? She wanted to turn and run as fast as her feet would carry her.
This chapter is excerpted from MIRIAM / Chapter Seven: The Stranger
I CHANGED THE WORLDAMAZON.COM
THE POLAR EXPRESS WITH JASON CLARK
“It’s Christmas Eve, and instead of dreaming of the best day of the year, the boy is in his bedroom agonizing over the universal question: Does God…sorry, I mean Santa Claus, really exist?”
In this final podcast of 2022 and season three, Jason shares a story from his first book about the Polar Express, and faith. Whether you’re tired or wide awake, full or empty, lost or found, sick or whole, you are loved by Triune God who walks beside you, will never leave you, and invites you to awaken to His affection and love. “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace, and goodwill toward men!”
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
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Judas’ Salvation
I recently heard a story about a boy who asked an Orthodox Priest if he could pray for Judas’ salvation.
The priest looked at the boy, smiled, leaned down, and responded, “Yes, of course!”
When he looked up and caught the concerned and questioning gaze of the boy’s parents, he stood and whispered, “I don’t know what it could mean for Judas, but it will be very good for your boy.”
I love this story for a couple of reasons. First, the priest empowered the young fella to steward a reconciling heart in alignment with our heavenly Father’s heart “that none should perish.”
Second, he protected the boy’s heart from aligning with the punishing sin-counting mindset of the older brother in the parable of The Prodigal Son—the fella who willfully opposed his father’s heart of forgiveness and reconciliation toward his younger brother.
When I heard this story, I realized that many years ago, long before I’d answered that young woman’s question on Facebook, I’d decided to be like that priest. I’d decided Greater Love is in the business of reconciliation—forever—and I would align my affections with this ultimate Love.
So, when asked, “Can I pray for Judas,” or, “Can I be saved after I die?” or, “Can I place my hope in a God who reconciles?” I answer earnestly, “Yes, of course!”
Not because I know what it could mean for Judas or anyone else who has passed on, but because I’m convinced reconciling love is the ultimate truth Jesus revealed about the heart of our Father; because I’m convinced love transcends dimensions of time and space, even if I can’t understand it yet. Because I’ve made Greater Love the Cornerstone of my faith—it’s where I’ve placed my trust.
And as I near age 50, I’m discovering that aligning my affections with Jesus’ affections in this life, and for the next, is the joy of my salvation. The same joy that sustained Jesus through the hellish lie of separation He experienced on His way to and through the cross—a hell He exposed and defeated—forever.
This article is excerpted from my book, Leaving and Finding Jesus
Chapter Ten: Yes, I Sure Hope So
Why Evangelize?
I met with a church board member at his house to discuss the article for the purpose of connection and understanding—so we could move forward together. At least, that’s what I thought we were doing. Karen and I had no desire to leave the church; it was our extended family.
“If we can be saved after we die, why evangelize?” He asked.
“We evangelize because life is infinitely richer and more beautiful when lived in an ever-transforming revelation of God’s measureless love in the here and now—right?” I asked.
“Of course, yes!” he agreed wholeheartedly.
Then he continued with the same line of questioning. “But, if we can be saved after we die, what stops someone from living a life of unbounded riot and debauchery,” he asked with a pastoral tone. Except his example was more specific, “What stops me from cheating on my wife and doing drugs?”
I realized he had personalized specific sins in order to connect. But I took him up on his premise.
“Are you saying that your fear of eternal punishment is the only thing that restrains you from cheating on your wife and doing drugs?” I asked, matching his pastoral tone.
“Of course not!” he said, upset.
“Exactly,” I responded, matter of fact.
Then I told him about a question I’d received earlier in the week similar to the one he’d just posed.
“What if a belief in hell is what stops a man from raping a woman?” I’d been asked.
“Then, dear God, that fella needs to believe in punishment for her sake, his sake, and ours,” I’d responded.
The board member looked at me, confused.
“If a punishing view of God is the only thing keeping a person from hurting himself or others, that person may need to keep believing in punishment for a time. But let’s not pretend that person is whole or free. And whatever we do, let’s not give that kind of thinking a pulpit in our lives.”
He nodded enthusiastically, and I continued.
“If we need punishment to motivate us in any way—either to avoid evil or to do good, then we haven’t fully experienced, nor understand the gospel of Jesus, and we still have much to learn about freedom.”
He nodded again, enthusiastically.
But before I left, he made it clear there was likely no room for my non-punishing thoughts about God within our church…
This article is excerpted from my book, Leaving and Finding Jesus
Panic In The Backseat
When Karen was five, she had her first and only panic attack. It was on a Sunday, after church. She had a tummy ache and, with it, a sudden terror. What if she died? She began to hyperventilate, so Dad and Mom put her in the car, where she sat in the back seat between her grandmothers as they raced to the hospital.
In that moment of paralyzing fear, when five-year-old Karen thought she was dying, she told her grandmothers she wanted to ask Jesus into her heart—and she did.
Shortly after she said the prayer, the only panic attack she’s ever had subsided. They never made it to the hospital. Instead, they turned the car for home and celebrated a small miracle.
And it was. Jesus met Karen in her five-year-old terror and saved her with His great loving-kindness. But for the next 40 years, Karen told her salvation story through the lens of her evangelical upbringing as though it were cute. And we’d all grin because Karen has always been cute—and because God has always been good.
However, as we have grown in the love of our heavenly Father and discovered a goodness beyond what we knew yesterday, and through raising our kids—as well as some healthy deconstructing—that story is no longer cute.
You see, in the last few years, Karen has realized what happened.
That morning, in Sunday School, she’d likely received some version of the typical salvation message—the one with which many of us have grown up. Remember? It’s the one about punishment that often-included hell trains and the gnashing of teeth, forever, etc., etc., etc.
When she looks back on that salvation prayer now, she recognizes the kindness of God, the sweetness of loving family, and the reconciling wonder of the good news. At the same time, she recognizes how her little five-year-old heart was exploited and how her innocent and sincere desire for Jesus was manipulated by religious fear-mongering.
There is no bitterness in Karen. Kindness marked her formative years and continues to transform our families. She believes those who likely shared the sin counting, hellfire, Western evangelical salvation message were good, well-meaning people doing their level best; but also, because of kindness, she has deconstructed any salvation message that leverages hell and a cruel and punishing God to manipulate hearts of any age, because it is abusive and nothing like Jesus…
This article is excerpted from my book, Leaving and Finding Jesus